314. Finding Common Ground in the Gun Safety Debate with Kris Brown and Liz Dunning

Transcript

Download Transcript Here

The Daily Helping Episode 314: Kris Brown and Liz Dunning

Liz Dunning: What can I do? What can one person do? And that one question, number one, can help keep you and your family safer in a practical way. It does that. And then, in a medium long term way, you're participating in changing the culture in America around guns, which we must do in order to get away from the moment that we're in right now.

Dr. Richard Shuster: Hello and welcome to The Daily Helping with Dr. Richard Shuster, food for the brain, knowledge from the experts, tools to win at life. I'm your host, Dr. Richard. Whoever you are, wherever you're from, and whatever you do, this is the show that is going to help you become the best version of yourself. Each episode you will hear from some of the most amazing, talented, and successful people on the planet who followed their passions and strived to help others. Join our movement to get a million people each day to commit acts of kindness for others. Together, we're going to make the world a better place. Are you ready? Because it's time for your Daily Helping. Thanks for tuning in to a very special episode of The Daily Helping Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Richard. And we have two incredible people to share with you today. Liz Dunning is happy to serve at Team Brady as the Vice-President of Development. She brings deep expertise in a nonprofit management strategy and organizational development, having worked primarily in the public education policy and philanthropic sectors over her 20 year career. She is a survivor of gun violence, which we are going to talk about as well. Also joining us today, and I'm honored to share with you, Kris Brown. She's the President of Brady, and she combines a lifelong background in policy, law, and grassroots activism. She is known best for her work on common ground. She is a noted speaker and media commentator. She was featured in the November 2018 episode of Time Magazine cover article, Guns in America, and she noted that Brady is working to move the discussion of gun violence beyond the polarizing politics in America. That's important. And I want to share something personal. This is something that I have kind of a unique perspective on as a clinician, in that, I have treated survivors of gun violence as well as I've worked with the criminals who purveyed these crimes. And so, this is not going to be a political discussion. Anybody who's listening to this would probably agree that fewer dead children in this country would be a good thing. So, I want to start with you, Liz, and welcome to the show. It is great to have you here. I want to hear your story because you weren't always in this space. Of course, you can never do justice in a sentence, right, that you were a survivor of gun violence. Tell us that story, please.

Liz Dunning: Sure. So, it's great to be with you. I really appreciate being able to tell my story and to connect it to the work that I do every day. I am a survivor of gun violence. On December 5, 2003, my mom, Nancy, was shot and killed answering the door of her home. That murder went unsolved for nearly 12 years. Finally, actually, after the murder of two other individuals, my mom's murder was connected to those murders, all three, the killer was sentenced and convicted for all three murders in November 2015, actually on All Saints Day. In the interim between 2003 and 2015, I really spent a lot of my time honestly focused on my own survival, on my own ability to relearn to experience joy, and to recalibrate and understand my own definition of family and safety and love. But it was after that justice came - the justice that my family had, frankly, stopped waiting for - that I began to think, "Well, here are all the things I know how to do. Here are all the things that I've done for organizations through my career and that I'm passionate about." Both of my parents raised me and my brother to think about how we could help others through the work that we chose to do. So, it became kind of a natural fit then to start thinking about connecting my life experience as a gun violence survivor with my professional knowledge as a nonprofit manager and leader. But I couldn't quite figure out how to do it. So, I'm a big believer in just sort of doing the next right thing. And so, I've always been a runner, and as I was beginning to contemplate what would have been my mom's 70th birthday and my own 40th birthday coming not too terribly long after that, I was thinking, you know, there's got to be something I can do to acknowledge that day that moves me down this path of figuring out how to be a more public voice in this space. So, what I ended up doing was deciding to run a marathon. And I ran it actually on my mom's birthday through very, very cold streets in Washington, D.C. And in doing that, I ended up deciding both to write about my experience and my grief for the first time, to engage and talk about it publicly for the first time. But it also began to acquaint me with Brady, the organization that I work for now. And that sort of was in the spirit of the next right thing. I ended up raising just about $30,000 that day running 26 miles one year for every year that I had with my mom. And that was the next right thing. I got to know Kris. I got to know the organization. And I got to begin to understand there's so much learning still left to do, the complexity of the gun violence epidemic in this country and the points of focus that you can bring your attention to, to help solve it.

Dr. Richard Shuster: I said this in the beginning when I was reading your intro and Kris's intro, that this has become such a polarizing topic in this country. So, I think some table setting here, many people have heard of the Brady Bill but might not know that there's a foundation actually behind that. So, do you mind giving us a little history lesson here on the Brady Foundation?

Liz Dunning: Sure. So, the the organization's name is Brady, just plain old Brady. And we are a mix of advocacy and programs really focused on the various root causes of gun violence. We recognize gun violence actually for what it is, which is the number one cause of death for children and an urgent public health epidemic in the United States of America. And while I know and appreciate that there is this sense that guns are political and polarizing, the data, just for what it's worth, doesn't actually bear that out. Americans are overarchingly supportive of the kind of legislative changes that we're advocating. And, often, when introduced to messages around gun responsibility and safe storage, they're overwhelmingly supportive of those things, too. So, they've been politicized, but I actually think in conversation, in community, in connection, it's a lot less polarizing than people think. So, for me, it's really important that we kind of acknowledge the reputational sort of stuff around the polarization of gun violence, take it off the shelf, talk about it, hash it out a little bit. Because often what we find when we do that is that there's a lot that we can do together. And, in fact, you know, almost everyone in conversation when you start talking about guns as the number one cause of death for kids - and I'm pointing to my heart, which you can't see on a podcast - people know right in their heart, in their gut that something is very off. That we've gotten something wildly out of balance. No matter how you think about the construction of the U.S. Constitution, there's no scenario in which the United States should have as number one cause of death for kids to be gun violence. That's not the land of the free and the home of the brave. No chance. So, I think when you enter through that door and you talk about the lives that we all want for our children and our families, it's pretty easy to find the way forward with many, many, many folks, if not everyone.

Dr. Richard Shuster: Well, Liz, thank you for that. And, Kris, I want to ask you a little bit more specifically because, again, I think some people, they might have heard of the Brady Bill. So, tell us how that got started, how Brady got started. Liz shared with us your non-political mission. This is just about helping kids. So, I'm going to let you, you know, give us even a bit more data on why and what you guys do.

Kris Brown: Well, thank you for that. And we appreciate this discussion this morning. It's really important. Brady was founded by Jim and Sarah Brady. It was actually an organization, a much smaller one. We had a predecessor in interest called Handgun Control, Inc. And when Jim was shot - of course, Jim Brady was President Ronald Reagan's press secretary - grievously wounded in that assassination attempt in which Ronald Reagan and Jim and others were shot. Some lost their lives. Jim and Sarah thought it was a real problem, that it was still so easy for individuals, we all agreed should not have easy access to firearms and to gain that access. So, they worked with Handgun Control, Inc., and over six years and seven votes, they achieved what a lot of folks felt was impossible. Or shouldn't be impossible, but it was because the National Rifle Association tried to stop them every step of the way, which is the passage of the Brady Law. And that's our nation's background check system, requiring a background check to be done by federally licensed firearms before the sale of any firearm across the country.

Dr. Richard Shuster: So, where is the fail point here in the system? Because we have the Brady Bill. And, again, as I read in your bio, the issue is moving this conversation. You know, you're not out there advocating against the Second Amendment. You're not telling people that they shouldn't have guns. But where's the failure point? Because if we're having background checks at all these federally licensed gun dealers, what is your data showing as to why guns are getting in the hands of so many people who are doing harm?

Kris Brown: Yeah, very good question. Just to back up for a second, what we're advocating for is a view of the Second Amendment that's historically accurate that was in place for about 200 years. And so, we're actually advocates for the Second Amendment, along with gun owners and non-gun owners who wants an America in which, as Liz said, firearms are not the number one killer of our children. And on that, we can't find a more unanimous vote yes across this country, red or blue state, Republicans or Democrats. Part of the frustration that I think a lot of people have is universal background checks - that's what a lot of people refer to as the Brady Law - are supported by something like 94 percent of Americans. But when Jim and Sarah passed that law in 1993, there was no such thing as the internet. I know. I was there working in Congress and we didn't have the internet. As my girls say, "Did you have carrier pigeons?" We had fax machines and things like this. And so, internet sales of guns weren't a thing. Today, they are. And gun shows today are big business. And as a result of both of those activities, there are entities that are not federally licensed firearm dealers who, nevertheless, are selling guns over the internet, they're selling guns at gun shows. And our research and studies done by others tell us that about one in five guns sold today is sold just that way with no background check at all. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that if you're a prohibited purchaser, how do you think you'd go about trying to purchase a firearm? Just that way. And very tragically and sadly, Brady has a legacy of litigating in the courts on behalf of victims. A number of the families devastated by gun violence who we have represented have lost loved ones just that way.

Dr. Richard Shuster: So, one of the things that I know you're also fighting hard to fix is that in addition to the horrific shootings that we hear about on the news too frequently, there's also a large number of children that are killed by going into a shoe box under the bed and pulling out a gun and playing with it and accidentally killing themselves. Talk to us about what you're doing there.

Kris Brown: Yes. Well, the legacy of Jim and Sarah is obviously accomplishing what a lot of people felt was impossible. Because I do want to note, too, that on the heels of passing the Brady Law itself, our background check system in '93, the very next year, they passed a National Federal Assault Weapons Ban, which, unfortunately, had a sunset provision that was in effect from 1994 until 2004. And during that time, we saw a significant reduction in the use of assault style weapons in mass shootings. Not a surprise that that's the case. But what Brady recognizes today is, with firearms, the number one killer of our kids, and understanding that we have a public health epidemic, we looked at successful approaches to dealing with other kinds of public health epidemics. That includes automobile fatalities. It includes secondhand smoke. It includes drunk driving and the designated driver campaign. And if you look at those kinds of social movements - and we are part of a movement, we are part of a gun violence prevention movement - what you need is better policy, for sure, we're working on that. You need better enforcement of the policy you pass, we're also working on that. But you also need social norm change. You have to change behaviors. And what we have focused on is our End Family Fire Campaign. It has a very simple premise. Family fire is the injury or death of a loved one with an unsecured gun in the home. As you noted, eight kids a day are killed or injured in America in that way, 4.6 million and growing children live in homes with unsecured guns. We want to change that trajectory. And the answer is very simple, if we want to end family fire, we have to safely store firearms in our homes. What does that mean? That means guns that are firearms that are unloaded and locked, ammo separate. Pretty simple. But it's transformative, potentially, because it's not just kids who are being killed and injured this way. It's also if you look at the universe of gun violence in this country, we're losing on average about 45,000 Americans a year to gun violence, 65 percent, again, on average are suicide. The number one way to prevent suicide risk in a home, if you choose to have a firearm in your home, is ending family fire through safe storage. So, we really believe in this campaign. It builds on expertise we've had with our ASK Campaign, which we're really excited to talk about as well. And we have deployed it very successfully across the country and in the State of Missouri. And the numbers don't lie. We track the success. Folks who see this ad are significantly more likely to safely store their firearms. And, again, it's a public advertising campaign, so we have T.V. ads, radio ads, billboards, digital with over 3.2 billion views and counting.

Dr. Richard Shuster: I know you mentioned Missouri specifically. Missouri, I was shocked to learn has the largest - or excuse me, the highest number of suicides in the country. And so, I know you said it has been effective, let's crunch some numbers. What percentage of improvement has been shown in the State of Missouri after this campaign?

Kris Brown: Mind boggling improvements in almost every dimension. Liz and her team and the head of our End Family Fire Program, Colleen, just provided some updates. And if memory serves - but, Liz, you can correct me if I get it wrong - something like 440 percent increase in seeking out information about safe storage by those who are exposed to the ad. And what does that mean? It just means they saw the ad on T.V., or they saw it on a billboard, or they saw it in a magazine. So, that's a significant increase. It shows that the heavy exposure of the ad, so the more times you see it, the more times you're exposed to it, the more successful it is. But it builds on a huge record nationally. Do you want to share some of those stats, Liz?

Liz Dunning: So, nationally, what we know is that folks who are aware of the campaign are 48 percent likely to change how they store their guns. And that's the end goal. That's the behavior change. But we also know we're turning a battleship here. So, you have to change culture over time one piece at a time. So, education and awareness is step one. We're, you know, nearing our second year of really deep and focused work in the State of Missouri for the exact reason that you list, because they have a massive, massive issue around firearm suicide especially. And so, the first step really is seeing that more than 400 percent more likely to seek out information on safe storage. More than 300 percent more likely to talk to your family and friends about safe storage. So, those are the incremental indicators to the change that we're going to see over time. I wish deeply that we would see, you know, instantaneous, quantifiable improvement in the number of deaths and suicides by firearm in the State of Missouri. But social norm change takes a little bit more time. It requires both patience and urgency. And I can tell you that all of our early indicators are that we're going to see that change over time because of the effectiveness of the campaign across vectors.

Dr. Richard Shuster: I appreciate you sharing that. And I can't help but think of an experience I had. This was one of the most powerful experiences of my life when a young man several years ago listening to my show was the reason he put down a nine millimeter. And he wrote me the next day he was going to kill himself, obtained a gun, loaded the gun, and was getting ready to put it in his mouth and pull the trigger until I popped up. But as he was getting ready to write a suicide tweet, I popped up in his Twitter feed and it took him to episodes of my show, and he heard it. And he reached out to me and said, "Because of you, I no longer want to die." And so, when you're talking about a massive information campaign, I know just personally as an end of one how powerful just a tweet, just a tweet was the difference between this person being here in the world and now he's doing amazing things and not. And so, what you're doing is so important. Kris, you mentioned the ASK campaign, tell us a bit about that.

Kris Brown: I'm happy to. Every year, Brady commemorates ASK Day. It's on June 21st, the first day of summer in America, and we chose that very intentionally. There, we focus on reminding parents to ask about firearms during the summer, since this is a time when kids are not in school and spending more time in the home or in the homes of others. Parents ask all types of questions before their children visit other homes. They ask about pets in the house. I had a very allergic daughter, I was free to ask all the time about allergies, internet access, and questions about supervision. ASK Day reminds parents across the country, guardians and caretakers to ask one more question, and that's "Is there an unlocked gun in your home?" And I want to say the question itself is so important, but following on our End Family Fire conversation, it's the answer in the conversation that is part of the culture change that we need to make in this country. And there are all kinds of amazing stories that we've heard from so many people. I've experienced it myself because I'm somewhat shy in real life. And so, I thought about it in the context that we put it for ASK Day, which is, "Would you ever not ask the question if your child had an allergy?" And that was very empowering for me because, of course, I always ask that question. And the thing that's transformative about it is you'd be surprised in your own community, no matter where you live, the people who are thrilled that you're asking the question. And it engages in a conversation and then you can make your own determination if the answer is yes to ask about safe storage. Or if you're uncomfortable about it, then have the playdate at your house. But it allows individuals to actually engage on this issue. It doesn't vilify gun ownership, but it focuses on safe storage and allows people to have real conversations about this risk. Sometimes - and we've heard this from many people - it reminds people, "Oh, my gosh. I'm going to check and see because I think we had my Uncle Dave's gun in the upstairs closet. I hadn't thought about it." We have heard that from so many people.

Liz Dunning: But it's something we've got to talk about. I mean, these conversations help paint this picture of the safer world that we're all seeking. The one where our kids can grow up to happy, healthy, safe adults. And having those conversations, you know, one by one helps paint that picture. And I think it's an incredibly important part, as Kris says, of really engaging in an impactful way as an individual as part of that change around social norms and social culture. It's really important. And people are always asking or often asking, What can I do? What can one person do? And that one question, number one, can help keep you and your family safer in a practical way. It does that. And then, in a medium long term way, you're participating in changing the culture in America around guns, which we must do in order to get away from the moment that we're in right now, where guns are the number one cause of death for kids.

Kris Brown: One other thing here is that we've been doing this for two decades. ASK, it's an acronym which is Asking Saves Kids. And we have a lot of information on our website at bradyunited.org. Please go there to find out more information if you're interested. It's a really great way to engage in your community, with your schools, with your educators. There's all kinds of amplifications that you can do. And it's deeply meaningful. We have folks who joined Brady 20 years ago when we started this because of this campaign, and we want to keep it going for the next generation.

Liz Dunning: Yeah. There are email templates that you can send. I'm not currently a room mom to either of my kids' class, but the number of emails I get on those various lists is still pretty legion, especially at this time of year. And it's an easy one to cut and paste and send out as folks are thinking about keeping their family safe for summer.

Dr. Richard Shuster: Well, I like the way the question is phrased, because valence is everything, and by phrasing it as a question to inquire as to if there are unsecured firearms versus firearms themselves, it changes the whole dynamic of that question. It goes from, really, an accusatory tone to an exploratory kind of collaborative tone, which is really fantastic.

Liz Dunning: It's the Ted Lasso way, right? It's the idea of being curious, not critical. It's amazing what happens when you do that.

Dr. Richard Shuster: Well, this has been so important, and I'm so grateful you both came on the show. As you know, I wrap up every episode by asking my guests their biggest helping, which is that one single most important piece of information you'd like somebody to walk away with after hearing the conversation. Kris, you're kind of on a roll, I'm going to let you take this one.

Kris Brown: I just finished a whole lot of meetings on the Hill over the last couple of days, and Liz and I have been out talking to a lot of people across the country, people are really concerned about their safety because of the prevalence of firearm violence across this country that we see on the news. We have a study that says, in three years, every person in America will be directly or indirectly impacted by gun violence, meaning they're either a victim or they know someone who was. This is weighing heavily on people's minds. So, it's a sense of what can I do to make a difference? Is it just legislation? Are there other things? And I would encourage all of your listeners to really think about it this way, everyone has a sphere of influence in their life. Some people really love going and sitting in a hearing room and wearing the shirt and holding elected officials to account. We love when people love that. But it's okay if you don't. You can also get involved in the Gun Violence Prevention Movement with Brady by making calls, by sending emails. If you have five minutes in your day, you can make a difference. And I'd really encourage everyone to go check out our website. We're very cognizant that there are a lot of busy people and there are a lot of people who want to engage in different ways, not necessarily a way that involves travel or other things. That may involve talking to your educator, talking to your next door neighbor, we've talked about that. So, please explore the kinds of amplifications that you can engage in by going to our website.

Dr. Richard Shuster: Well, I always ask people who come on the show to tell us where they can find more about people online. You've already said there's some great stuff on the website. Give us that URL one more time.

Kris Brown: www.bradyunited.org.

Dr. Richard Shuster: Perfect. And we will have links to that in the show notes. And remember, June 21st is ASK Day, so we'll have some information there as well. Well, thank you both so much for coming on the show and doing the work you do. This was an honor having you on our show today.

Liz Dunning: Thank you so much, Dr. Richard.

Kris Brown: Thank you, Dr. Richard. We appreciate you.

Dr. Richard Shuster: Absolutely. And I appreciate you. And I also appreciate each and every one of you who took time out of your day to listen to this conversation. If you like what you heard, if you felt empowered, go give us a follow on Apple Podcasts and leave us a five star review, because that is what helps other people find the show. But most importantly, go out there today and do something nice for somebody else, even if you don't know who they are, and post it in your social media feeds using the hashtag #MyDailyHelping, because the happiest people are those that help others.