403. “You Don’t Have to Go to India to Find God” | The Power of Kindness with Leon Logothetis

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Leon Logothetis:
I have awareness of being taken into, let's say, the washing machine of news and society and culture. So, I can choose to turn that on or turn it off. And there are some times when I can't choose, yeah? But whilst I'm watching it, I'm like, hmm, what are you doing? You just had like two hours of being completely free and now you're putting poison inside yourself.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
Hello and welcome to the daily helping with Dr. Richard Shuster. Food for the brain, knowledge from the experts, tools to win at life. I'm your host, Dr. Richard. Whoever you are, wherever you're from, and whatever you do, this is the show that is going to help you become the best version of yourself. Each episode, you will hear from some of the most amazing, talented and successful people on the planet who followed their passions and strived to help others. Join our movement to get a million people each day to commit acts of kindness for others. Together, we're going to make the world a better place. Are you ready? Because it's time for your Daily Helping. 

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Daily Helping Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Richard. And I am so excited to share our guest with you today. His name is Leon Logothetis. He is a humanitarian and best-selling author, the host of the Netflix series, The Kindness Diaries, where he circumnavigated the globe on his vintage yellow motorbike, Kindness One, giving life changing gifts along the way to unsuspecting good Samaritans. All of this while relying solely on the kindness of strangers. 

He's collaborated with Southwest Airlines, little things in Trafalgar, gathering millions of views and raising hundreds of thousands of dollars for those in need. Leon has been everywhere: Good Morning America, the LA Times, the San Francisco Chronicle, Outside, Good, Psychology Today, and the New York Times. We're here today to talk about his newest film, The Kindness Within: A Journey to Freedom, which is available now on Amazon Prime Video. Leon, welcome to The Daily Helping. It is awesome to have you with us today.

Leon Logothetis:
Thank you very much for having me. I'm excited. 

Dr. Richard Shuster:
No, this is great. You know, it's funny, what I often do is I like to ask my guests to jump back in their time machine and go back and kind of talk about the journey, but it's almost like you've had several journeys, right? Because each of these things that I talked about, The Kindness Diaries, and now, The Kindness Within, these are these are chapters really in your life. But I do want to go back, and from general purpose speaking, what was it that really filled you up with this desire to do things to want to help people? 

Leon Logothetis:
So, that's a great question. And I would say that as a kid, I felt like many people were unkind and I felt the fury of people who lacked kindness, and lacked compassion, and lacked empathy. And I never understood why. I remember, sometimes, I would be at school and teachers - teachers, right? They're supposed to protect you - would behave in ways that were just horrendous. And I would always think to myself, "Why are you doing this?" Like, I wouldn't say that loud, but I would say, "Why are you doing this?" Like, "What's wrong with you? I'm just a child." 

And promised to myself that I would go out into the world to the best of my ability and make people feel the way that I didn't feel. And I wanted to make people feel like they had value and I wanted to take my heart out and share it with as many people as I possibly could, because I knew what it felt like when people were mean, and unpleasant, and unkind and vicious. And I had a few people that treated me with respect and with love and with kindness, and I never forgot those moments. 

Dr. Richard Shuster:
And so, I mean, obviously you've done pretty remarkable things, right? You're describing thoughts of a child that you recognize some people were cruel to you, some people were kind to you, and you saw this opportunity. But clearly, when you were a child, Netflix - like when I was a child - didn't exist, right? So, talk to us about the path continuing to unwind for you up to the Kindness Diaries.

Leon Logothetis:
Okay. So, good question. So, look, I used to be a broker in the City of London. And on the outside, I had everything you could ever want. And on the inside, I had absolutely nothing you would ever want. I was very depressed, purposeless and just aimless. And I thought this was going to be my life for the rest of my days. But I had this little small hope that maybe, maybe it would change. 

And that hope became a realization after I watched the movie The Motorcycle Diaries, which is a romanticized version of Che Guevara traveling around South America relying on kindness. And it was a transformative movie. And to cut a very long story short, I basically quit my job and started to travel around the world relying on kindness. I hitchhiked from Times Square to the Hollywood sign. I went from London all the way up to Scotland, back to London. I walked from the Eiffel Tower to Red Square in Moscow. I bought a vintage taxi and drove it from Times Square to the Hollywood sign giving free cab rides to people. 

I always had this urge to go on adventures, and I had this urge to connect with people. So, I think that it began as a kid, it kind of crystallized after watching the movie, The Motorcycle Diaries, and then I kind of put it into action. And again, I don't want people to think that, "Oh, so I quit my job, and everything worked out, and I just went on these amazing journeys, and I was fine. There was no depression, there was no sadness and everything just worked out." I mean, that's not what happened obviously because the kindness within is not… you know, it's some dark stuff to a certain degree. 

And I had this urge, this inner fire to see the world, and I had this inner fire to connect with people, and I had this inner fire to connect with my humanity and connect with your humanity. And that's kind of what led me up to doing all of those things. And then, actually the big one I missed, was I bought a vintage yellow motorbike, as you mentioned, and I circumnavigated the world with it, which,  to me, as I look back, sounds insane, like now, I literally, when I see that motorbike, and I think, "Well, you know, I'm just going to go down the road to the grocery store," I'm like, "Are you mad? That bike is never going to make it to the grocery store." But I circumnavigated the world with it. 

So, sometimes we do things that just make no sense but make absolute sense. So, I did that. And everything kind of came true in the sense of the external things. I was on Netflix, I was doing a lot of press, I was speaking in front of thousands of people, and I had arrived, as you say or some people may say, but the truth is I had not arrived because I still hadn't fixed what was going on inside. And that's where we get to the movie.

So, with the movie, obviously, it began with a moment of despair. I remember feeling very, very down, in a desperate place. And I ended up calling my therapist and we spoke it through. It was very late at night and he happened to pick the phone up. And the next morning, I went to a bookshop, randomly walked into a bookshop that I'd been to many, many times, and I saw a book on the shelf, The Autobiography of a Yogi. Again, I'd seen this book many times, never picked it up.

That day, I decided to pick it up. I picked it up and I swear to you, randomly opened it, randomly looked at a paragraph, and in it, the paragraph said, "Paramahansa Yogananda was speaking to a soon-to-be guru and he says, 'If you reveal God to me, I will follow you anywhere.'" And I had an epiphany. I wasn't thinking about the God that lives in the sky, right? I was thinking about the universe's energy of love that lives in everything. And my epiphany was, I'm going to India to find God, and I'm not coming back until I do. And that's really how the movie began. 

And I went to India and I came back. So, I kind of gave away the whole story. But that's kind of where we ended up.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
And I had an opportunity to preview the movie before it was released. And I think you're downplaying a little bit about how desperate you were. I mean, you were in a place where you were contemplating suicide. And I think that's so interesting, because yes, externally, you've arrived, you're on big TV shows and such, but yet, you were traveling the world helping strangers, and you were relying on kindness, you were demonstrating kindness to others. What about that wasn't powerful enough, do you think looking back, to break through some of the underlying depression and pain? 

Leon Logothetis:
So, that's a great question. Again, I would say that even though it wasn't enough, it absolutely helped. But by traveling the world, by doing all of these things, I realized that I was still running away from what was going on inside. And even that stopped working. It's weird, right? So, I got better, don't get me wrong. I was better than I was when I was sitting behind that desk but it got to a point where even traveling wasn't helping, where even helping people wasn't helping. I had to do more. I had to go within in such a profound way where there were no distractions, where there were no kind of goals, let's say, except the goal of peace. That was the only goal. 

And it wasn't just happening during the movie, it was happening before the movie, it was happening after the movie, and it reached a point where I would say that I'm closer to total freedom than I have ever been. And the movie was like a foundational piece of getting me to this place.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
You know, interestingly, as you're talking I can't help but think society, in general, everybody has some kind of trauma. Trauma is a relative term. Trauma just doesn't mean that you were shot at in Afghanistan when you were in the military. Trauma is very personal. Trauma could be somebody yelling at you when you were four years old and you never got over it.

And so, we all carry emotional baggage, right? And society today, we are so focused on technology, and there's so many distractions, and the TikToks and all of these different things that we really never have a chance to sit with ourselves and heal whatever's there. We're just pouring more and more stuff on top of it, kind of mask it. So, you know, what I loved about the movie and your journey is it was just you and whoever you were interacting with, whether it was children, and the poorest of poor children that were just pure and innocent, whether you were talking to a rabbi or a priest or all of these different things. 

So, I'm curious if you could share with us - and again, I'm trying not to give away too much of the movie to the audience - as you were talking to these people, I mean, you're in India, a highly spiritual place, pretty distraction-free in terms of what you were trying to seek. You were down there really for one purpose, and that was to find yourself through spirituality, right? So, talk to us about the changes you started experiencing as you began that journey.

Leon Logothetis:
So, I think the biggest change I experienced was instead of coming from my mind, I started coming from my heart. I started speaking to people and interacting with people from a place of heart, from a place of soul, from a place of peace. And it's not something I do all the time. I haven't reached the guru status that some of the people have reached in the movie, by any stretch of the imagination. 

But I have and I did, specifically when I was on this  journey, connect with people from a different place. Yesterday, I was in Malibu, and a friend of mine has a house in Malibu. Fortunately, it was not burnt down. And we were just sitting looking at the mountains and it was so peaceful. And I remember turning around to her and saying, "What I have been seeking and what I sought in the movie out there is actually in here inside me." It's the same thing. And that peace out there, if you can feel that peace inside as well, I don't say you've arrived but I would say that you're pretty close to arriving.

And after that trip in Malibu, I came home and what did I do? Turn on the television, check my phone and that peace disappeared. So, your point about going to India with no distractions and it being such a spiritual place, I think that's one of the biggest reasons why. It's because the level of distractions there, specifically for a westerner, is so much less than here. So, you're forced to be present. And when you are present, you are free. And that's one of the greatest lessons I learned from the movie and the greatest lesson I learned from some of the people in the movie that were just living that all the time. 

And I was having glimpses of it in the movie, right? And the aim is to take those glimpses and to actually live it as often as possible, like the moment I had in Malibu and to live from there. If you live from there, it's over.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
I'm wondering, and I know there were many profound experiences, but was there a point… because you went down there depressed and you went down there with desperation. At what point,  whether it was when you were swimming in the Ganges or was there another point where things started to click and you're like, "You know, I'm gonna be okay," because for most people, that's usually not like flipping a switch. That's usually a process.

Leon Logothetis:
Yeah. And thank you for asking that. And it was a process. Even within the movie, it was a process. Obviously, the movie's a microcosm for me of the past 20 years, right? But in the movie, it was a process. I nearly didn't get on the plane, literally. I mean this isn't in the movie, but I nearly did not get on the plane. It was too scary to go and do this. 

And there was another moment, I was in Rishikesh. I'd been there for two or three days in India and I gave up. I literally gave up. I was on my way to the director's room in the hotel, and I was going to say to him, "I'm going home. There was no doubt in my mind, it's done. And as I'm walking in this hotel, not a particularly fancy hotel, there's this room that has a door open. I'm like, "Hmm,  that's interesting." So, I walked into the room and it's a library. I'm like, "Hmm, I like books." So, I looked in the library, and there aren't many books. It's not a great library. And I see a book by Paramahansa Yogananda called The Divine Romance, which is all about seeking God. And I was like, "You know what? That's it. It's done. I'm not leaving. Thank you Paramahansa Yogananda, I'm staying and that's it."

I would have left if I'd not seen that book, I'm telling you. So to answer your question, it is a process, it was a process, it started hard. And each time I met someone, it kinda felt like the door was opening a little bit more. And you know, I'm not going to share when the door fully opened but it was a profound moment. It was a very, very profound moment that I will never forget. And I think people who watched the movie will have a similar transformative moment in that scene because it's just magnificent. I know I'm biased but I think you know what I'm talking about and it is magnificent. 

Dr. Richard Shuster:
I want to ask you a different question. And again, I'm saying this under the guise of you've had a show for two seasons where you went around the world on a motorbike and engaged in acts of kindness. So, your perspective is different than most people's perspective. But as it relates to the people you encountered in India, you did a really great job in the film of showing the purity and your curiosity of question and all of these things. But what I'd like to know is what really surprised you about the people that you encountered that you weren't expecting to get. 

Leon Logothetis:
I think what surprised me is I spoke to many, many different types of people. I spoke to Buddhists, I spoke to Hindus, I spoke to Sikhs, I spoke to Christians, I spoke to atheists, I spoke to Hare Krishnas. I spoke to many, and I engaged with many. And although they may have different opinions from the mind, at base from the heart, it's all the same thing. The feelings were the same. And that was something that was really quite profound. 

So, at the purest level of spirit and of humanity, we are all exactly the same. And that was a very fascinating and moving thing to be a part of. Like, we are literally the same. Again, of course, on a mind level, on a politics level, on  a cultural level, on a societal level, we can be very different. But if you take all those away, at the base, at the base, at the very base of our soul and our humanity, we are absolutely exactly the same.

And you only truly realize that when you have a felt experience of it. And look, that doesn't mean that I don't get angry at people for doing things I don't like or I turn on the news, which I very rarely do, and disapprove of certain things that are going on. That's the difference, right? But at base, if you come from a place of meditation, if you come from a place of soul, if you come from a place of peace, all of that disappears. And if you've had that experience, you'll know what I'm talking about. And if you haven't had that experience, I pray that you do.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
So, your mission when this movie started was to find God? 

Leon Logothetis:
A hundred percent. That was my last chance. 

Dr. Richard Shuster:
What's your mission now, Leon? 

Leon Logothetis:
That is a great question. You ask great questions, I must say. I keep saying that's a great question. So, look, I've concentrated all my energy and my efforts on this movie. I want as many people to be transformed by it as possible. I was transformed by the Motorcycle Diaries, and it would be an honor to have people transformed by this. I said to myself, I'm not going to think about what I'm going to do next until this movie is out and I have finished promoting it. Until that moment, I have no idea. 

And in the past, I would be chasing things, chasing things, I've got to do this, I've got to do that. It will come. Whatever is meant to be will come. And if you'd said this to the Leon seven years ago, he'd be like, "Have you lost your mind? You have to do something." No. I don't know if you remember this quote, you probably do. When I was sitting by the Shiva statue in Rishikesh and I tell Nandini ji, I say to her, "Clearly, you have what I want. How do I get there?" And she says, "Don't do. Just be." I was like, "Wow. Don't do, just be. All right."

Dr. Richard Shuster:
You know, we've done over the years episodes on meditation. I've talked about technology with certain guests, and the damage that social media does to people and things that are dividing us societally. Your Malibu example was, I think, a perfect description of most people today, right? Like you had this peaceful moment but it's almost impossible if you're living in the West to not get sucked back into your phone. Everybody's got a phone, right? And so, everybody's got a TV, and these distractions are there, and these things that are essentially there, which cause us significant emotional distress. 

And the data is really good. I mean, we have, now, multiple decades worth of data and scientific research to show what does social media do to our emotional functioning? It's not good, right? We have decades worth of data to know what the news does to our functioning. I mean, hell, the movie network, I think in 1973 or '74, pretty much described a lot of what's applicable today with respect to the news media. And that's not tinfoil hat stuff. That's legitimate and there's decent science behind it. 

So, the question I ask you, because I don't know that there's a good answer, is knowing what we know, knowing that we can all find our Himalayan or our, excuse me, our Malibu Mountain scene, right, we all can find it wherever we are, whoever we are. But the question then, and I think probably the more important question, Leon, is what's the strategy so that we find a way not to eliminate, because unless you're going to go off the grid, you're going to be exposed to this stuff, right? So, what's the strategy to buffer what life is throwing at us every day so we can have a little bit more peace? 

Leon Logothetis:
Another great question. I think the first thing is to become aware. Like you can sit and say what you just said, and maybe some of the people listening won't even be aware of what's happening to them, right? Maybe they'll be aware intellectually but that was me for many, many years. I remember once, a teacher said to me, "The moment you go home, the news, society, culture is probably going to bring you down." I was like, "What are you talking about? Society, culture and news doesn't affect me at all." I actually said that. So, that's me being completely unaware of what's happening to me. 

Now, I will say to you based on the Malibu story is I have awareness of being taken into, let's say, the washing machine of news and society and culture, right? So, I can choose to turn that on or turn it off. And there are some times when I can't choose. Like yesterday, I come back and I just turn on and watch stupidity, yeah? But whilst I'm watching it, I'm like, "Hmm, what are you doing? You just had like two hours of being completely free. And now, you're putting poison inside yourself."

So, at some point,  it will, hopefully for me and for others, get to a point where I'm like, "Hmm, I know that there's a hole in the road, I'm going to go down a different road," yeah? That doesn't mean that I'm never going to have a phone, doesn't mean that I'm never going to watch television, but it does mean that I'm going to be so conscious about all of those things that can take me out of my presence, that I will use them selectively, right? 

For example, one of the things that I do is, look, I had a flip phone for many years, just for this reason. On my phone now, I have no Instagram, I have no Facebook, I have no internet, because I know that I cannot control myself. I will go onto Instagram, I will go onto Facebook, I will go and check the soccer scores, I will turn on the news. So, I put things in place to keep me as protected as I can be without going off the grid. 

I don't know if I explained it well. I don't know if it was linear, but I would say awareness is the first thing. Then,  making sometimes difficult decisions to protect yourself, so that your presence isn't put into that washing machine. 

Dr. Richard Shuster:
I always tell people the awareness piece, I think, is so hugely important. And I tell people to do an experiment, that the next time they go to dinner and go to a restaurant, put their phone in their pocket. And don't cheat with your watch. Put your phone in your pocket. And if you can make it through that whole dinner without having this burning, itching, scratching desire to rip out the phone from your pocket and see what you've missed, good for you. But I bet you're in the minority if you are, right? Most people would go five minutes, and then, all of a sudden, gotta grab the phone, what am I missing, right? 

So, I think if you're aware that that's a challenge for you, then there are things you can do. I know people that actually put their phones in safes. They put their phones in safes right after dinner. And they have a good old fashioned alarm clock, right? They don't use their phone  as a way to unplug. So, what you're saying is very wise. 

Leon, I've enjoyed our conversation today so much. I really enjoyed the movie and I can't wait for people to watch it. As you know, I wrap up every episode by asking my guests just this one question. I'm really excited for your answer. What is your biggest helping, that one most important piece of information you'd like somebody to walk away with after hearing our conversation today?

Leon Logothetis:
You don't have to quit your job and start traveling the world on kindness. You don't have to go to India to find God. All you have to do is take one step, one step on your journey of freedom and spirituality. If that step is calling a therapist, call a therapist. If that step is calling a friend and telling the friend your pain, call the friend. If the step is going to a bookshop and buying a book on hope or depression, buy a book on hope and depression. My journey was out of the box but it was my journey. Your journey can be one single step. That's where it begins. 

Dr. Richard Shuster:
Beautifully said. Leon, tell us where people can learn more about you online. 

Leon Logothetis:
So, you can go on Instagram @thekindnessguy. And you can obviously watch the movie, The Kindness Within: A Journey to Freedom on Amazon Prime. 

Dr. Richard Shuster:
Perfect. And we'll have everything Leon linked in the show notes at drrichardshuster.com. Well, I am so grateful you came on with us today. I really loved the movie. And again, thank you for creating it and sharing it with the world. 

Leon Logothetis:
Thank you very much for having me and for watching it.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
Absolutely. And to each and everyone of you who took time out of your day to listen to this conversation, thank you well. If you liked it, go give us a follow and a five-star review on your podcast app of choice, because this is what helps other people find the show. But most importantly, go out there today and do something nice for somebody else, even if you don't know who they are, and post it in your social media feeds, using the hashtag #mydailyhelping because the happiest people are those that help others.